British Bigots

I just read about the two Irish women who were murdered in Izmir this week, and the viewers comments in the Daily Mail totally shocked me. The general theme was that all Turks/Kurds are capable of murder, and therefore Turkey should not be allowed to join the EU. I do wonder if the fact that people from all walks of life can comment on articles in any newspaper, attracts the ignorant, stupid and bigoted.

I don't know if anyone else has read the article, but it certainly shows an undercurrent of racism in this country.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2027860/Two-Northern-Irish-women-stabbed-death-Turkey-marriage-row.html


What I can't understand is how people can make sweeping assumptions about a whole nation, on account of one,lone psychopath. The man who murdered these women is obviously psychopathic, and the killings were clearly premeditated. From reading the newspaper reports it's obvious that he planned the murders, and only a psychopath could do that. Even if he were to plead insanity, he would still be psychopathic to be capable of slitting two women's throats, in the mad belief he would get rid of the 'obstacle' preventing him from marrying the girl he so wanted.

There are psychopaths all over the world, and tragically this family stumbled upon him. But that was just geographical : he would be a psychopath wherever he lived in the world. So how can these ignorant bigots start tarring all Turks and Kurds with the same brush, and start saying all Turks are a murderous race?

Of course, we all know about the loverat syndrome, but I've never heard of anyone being murdered by a rat. This is a unique and tragic case.

I suppose I'm just really astonished that some of the people in this country are more blinkered, backward and ignorant than the very people they are denigrating and accusing of being cold-hearted mudererers - simply because they happened to be born in Turkey!

Strawbs

Yes Strawbs I agree but like you yourself said in the past there will be a murder one day with these going ons. Those words have come true sadly. The story in the mirror says the mother of the girl has her own Kurdish husband too They are much darker the Kurds, his pic is just like all the other Kurds, they look like Indian instead of Turkish. I know this is nothing to do with whats happened,just an observation...very sad

Maria

Oh, I missed that part - I never noticed it saying the mother had a Turkish husband, too. I'm kind of building a picture now.....even so, what this psychopath did had nothing to do with the mother's own relationship, and certainly nothing to do with her friend's! I suppose there could be some people who would conclude that with him coming from Eastern Turkey (and the low regard many of those have for women) that he saw them just as an incumberance - and decided to dispose of them - rather like some families do when their daughter doesn't act according to their wishes.

But that would mean all Kurds are psychopaths - and that's total nonsense. This man did this because he is evil, and would have done the same to anyone who'd got in his way - man, woman - anyone.

What does puzzle me is how the relationship was allowed to progress to such a serious level when the girl was only 15? I know girls of that age date boys etc, but there are normally restrictions and curfews etc, and I wonder if they were allowed too much freedom and time alone together? Their 'romance' must have been intense enough for them both to want to get married, so they must have been seeing each other regularly I would imagine. Maybe the mother missed the warning signs at the beginning? Which is why she didn't set restrictions much earlier on.

One other thing that puzzles me is why she agreed to meet his father? That sounds like she was either prepared to negotiate, or felt pressurised into meeting him by the boyfriend.

Whatever, nothing in the world is going to undo this, and it's such a tragic and terrifying story.

Strawbs

Hope the women RIP and the daughter recovers, it's a tragedy.

Pipxoxo

Yes, it is a very tragic story.

Once again though, this is a story of an extremely young girl who was allowed by her parents (her mother at least) to become involved in what appears to be a very serious relationship with a young foreign man she met on holiday. It says that she used to spend school holidays with him so presumably the mother allowed and/or encouraged her to do that too? This relationship grew somehow and we can assume from what we read that it was with the mother's blessing but that presumably she thought that marriage at the age of 15 was a step too far. Of course it was but to me, the whole thing was too much and should never have been allowed to get to the stage it got to.

She allowed her daughter to act like she was an adult when she was a child. She may have had the body of an adult and I'm sure the girl herself thought she had the mind of an adult but make no mistake, she was a child. The story talks of the girl making an error of judgement but I do not believe she can be blamed in any way. At 15 (and 14 as she must have been when the relationship began, one newspaper reports that the girl had been in a relationship with this lad since she was 13!) she was and still is a child. As a child you look to your parents to set appropriate boundaries for you and use their judgement to protect and guide you through life until you are able to do it without them.

What on earth is wrong with some parents? What goes on in their heads? If a fully grown consenting adult woman wants to go to Turkey and embark on and pursue a relationship with a Turkish/Kurdish man she meets there (just as I did) that's one thing but what mother in her right mind encourages a child of 13, 14 or 15 to do that? Do these mothers want to be their daughters' friend instead of their mother? Do they want to be seen as easy going, fun and cool rather than a mother who's an old stick in the mud and lays down the law? Do they just want a quiet life and no arguments or do they want to live vicariously through their daughters? Who knows?

All I know is that this is a terrible tragedy and there's every possibility that it could have been avoided by this girl never having been allowed by her mother to get so deeply involved with a young boy she met by chance on holiday. She should have enjoyed her holiday and returned to her normal life as a girl barely out of primary school with her friends, her school, her hobbies and interests and all the other things that a normal young teenager does. She had her whole life ahead of her and she should never have been encouraged or allowed to pursue this "relationship".

Instead this girl has now lost her mother, and a close family friend, and this terrible experience will blight her life forever. I'm sure she'll feel guilty about it until the day she dies.

It seems that the girl's mother spent summers in Turkey and was married to a Kurdish man. As I said on another post the other day, this was probably a case of monkey see and monkey do and the girl just copied what her mother did in becoming involved with local men whilst on holiday. She was clearly sexually active from a very young age and did all of this with her mother's consent as the mother was sharing a house with her daughter and the man who eventually killed her and her friend.

There is such a lot about this sorry tale that is absolutely tragic.

I'm not sure if the mother was stupid, easy, had low aspirations - or was a mixture of all three - but the more that's being revealed in the newspapers the more sickcening the whole situation is. Of course, it's horrific and tragic that she and her friend were killed by this man (or boy, if we're led to believe he's only 17) but you can't help wonder why she allowed this illegal relationship to start in the first place.

According to reports her daughter was just 13 when she embarked upon this holiday romance, and quite frankly, she could have been prosecuted in the UK for allowing her daughter to have a relationship with him whilst still a child. This wasn't just some 'schoolgirl holiday crush' - it was much more serious than that. The mother (if the reports are correct) actually allowed her daughter to go and live with him and his father for 3 months in May. If that's true, what on earth was going through the mother's head?!

And looking at the pictures of the 'boy' - he looks a whole lot older than 17 to me. I know a lot of older Turks often look older than their years, but they don't usually look like grown men at just 17. I'm wondering if he put his age down from the very beginning - he looks more like he's in his 20's if you ask me - late 20's even.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2028420/Turkey-murder-victims-ex-husband-burying-second-wife-New-loves-shock-death-day-brutal-crime.html

We all know how a lot of Kurds pick a birthday for themselves - often to delay the army - and often because their families never bothered to register their births in the proper way. Maybe he doesn't know himself how old he actually is; but I suspect he lied about his age when he met the 13-year-old two years ago. It seems very strange that he's worked in Kusadasi for two years; can drive a car; and has immense confidence. Not many 17-year-olds are like that; and not many 17-year-olds are with the same girlfriend they've been seeing since they were 15 - especially someone like him and how he appears to come across.

If you look at pictures of him he has lots of manly features, and his teeth look unnaturally white to me - the sort of teeth that have been paid for a gullible mug......He also paid for and rented a villa for all of them to stay in - how on earth did he afford that? There's much, much more to him than meets the eye.....

You'd have thought the mother would have been suspicious about him from the very start, and even if she wasn't, the whole thing was wrong. It was illegal, irresponsible and dangerous. I think you made a good point, Judith, when you said the mother may have been living vicariously through her daughter - a lot of middle-aged women do that. And it's always the women who come from very modest and uninspiring backgrounds who seem to push their young daughters into these stupid, childish relationships with penniless waiters. Why on earth would any normal mother have aspirations for their daughter to be with a poor Kurdish waiter/breakdancer - with no prospects - just a life of drudgery and 'going without'. It's so weird. I can only think these deluded, fairly unintelligent women - with low aspirations - see the relationships as exotic in some way. But there's nothing exotic about poverty, or being with a possessive, dictating bully - who both loves and hates women in equal measure.

It's obvious that the mother allowed this to snowball (how else did her daughter get to Turkey without her consent?) and it seems she only became concerned when it transpired the boyfriend was beating and kicking her daughter. That seemed to be her only beef ; yet she still allowed them to be together!

Her own doomed marriage to a Kurd came to an end fairly recently, and you can bet your life she was possibly looking for a replacement. She was possibly so engrossed in finding Kurd Number Two that she relented - albeit reluctantly - and allowed the two to still see each other 'as long as he promised never to life a finger to her again' Ha! Was she thick, selfish, or negligent? Or all three?

Of course, it's horrifying what's happened, and both women have lost their lives to a psychopathic, evil lunatic. It's dreadfully sad and tragic, and it doesn't bear thinking about how terrified both women must have been when he got the knife out - especially for the one who watched the first one slayed.

One worrying aspect of it is how he managed to manupulate them all. He sent the girl on a boat trip for the day, while supposedly taking the women to Izmir on a shopping trip and sightseeing tour. I wonder why they all agreed to that? Why didn't the girl go with them? I know what he had planned, and obviously he couldn't take the girl along, but I wonder why they were all so compliant to his plans? I doubt very much that the girl had any involvement in all this, although it did seem odd that she was very calm in the police station when she went, with her boyfriend, to report the supposed kidnap. Maybe she was in shock, and that was why she seemed so calm? It's awful to even consider her involvement in such a heinous crime - and I'm sure she wasn't involved - but it has been known for children to collude with their parents' killers. It's very, very rare - and I doubt very much that she was involved - but the police will have to question her to eliminate her involvement.

The whole thing really stinks doesn't it?

Strawbs

Did you see this bit.....

When I arrived at Kusadasi police station, Cetin and Shannon were both there. Cetin had a cut bandaged on his hand. I spoke to him for a few minutes and he told me a story about three men in a black van.

'He couldn't explain how he returned to Kusadasi.'

The uncle added: 'I talked to Shannon at the station. She seemed very calm and was coming up with suggestions as to who the men in the black van might be. She wasn't sobbing or crying.'

Jeeeeeeeez
Maria

It's quite scary to imagine what this young girl might have witnessed and experienced in her short life isn't it?

I also agree that there's no way that man is 17.

Well according to reports in the Daily Mail, their neighbours in Kusadasi said that they 'didn't fit in there' and there was lots of screaming and shouting coming from the rented vila. I suspect there was lots of heavy boozing going on, too.

The 'boy' seemed able to manipulate them with incredible ease (and doesn't he look a nasty piece of work in that photograph where he's lying on a sun lounger?) and despite the mother's refusal to allow him to marry her daughter, she still allowed them to continue with their illegal relationship - and after discovering he'd been beating her, too! The thing is if he was able to manipulate them and dictate to them so easily, it's quite possible that he indoctrinated and brainwashed the girl too. Of course, she may have been totally in the dark about what his intentions were that day, but I still think the police will need to question her. I don't know, I just feel there's something more to this.

And anyway, what was the rush with getting married? The girl's not even old enough to get married right now, so why couldn't they have waited and married without her mother's consent? There's just something about it that doesn't quite add up. Whether the mother was dead or alive they still couldn't marry right now. And as he was still in a relationship with the girl (despite all that had gone on) I can't see the reasoning for him killing the mother and her friend. He would have just 'worked' on the mother until she gave in and allowed him to marry her daughter - once she reached the legal age. I think there's more to it than what he's told police.

And no - he's definitely not 17!

Oh, slightly off-topic, but I notice that the deluded Yank, Reyhan, has started reading the Daily Mail (and hinting that it's a rubbish paper 'the Sun is much better' she suggests.... Just why is that American based Yank reading English newspapers? She seems to have far too much time on her hands.....but I suppose when you've never clapped eyes on your 'boyfriend' and have never heard his voice on the phone - daydreaming about him all day becomes monotonous after a while. Which begs the question : why doesn't she go out and socialise? What a boring life she must have. Oh, and she's slightly concerned that these killings may damage Kusadasi's reputation.........well, she needn't worry about that - she's never going to go there. Only when pigs learn to fly, perhaps......

Her 'LDR boyfriend' is having a laugh I reckon. In fact, I think he passes the time away at work by writing crap to her (a little distraction for him) I bet he's one of those musty woolly-jumper wearers, aged about 50, fat, bald and bored, and to relieve himself of boredom while he sits giving out bus tickets in his little cubby hole he writes crap to her. He only talks to her on MSN in the bus station - for a laugh. I bet as soon as he finishes his shift and closes down his MSN he forgets she even exists. It seems very strange that he never communicates with her outside of the bus station, and has never spoken to her on the phone - not even once! Maybe 'he's' a woman! You never know!

Strawbs

Strawbs

I think there's more to this killing as well, for certain. He must of been covered in blood so how did he clean himself up and how did he get back to Kus? It is awful to think Shannon could of been involved but being on a boat all day makes a good alibi............something fishy but could be wrong, hopefully.

Reyhan....her askim could be a woman who thinks she looks like a man? Or may be she's a lesbian working in the bus station.......

Well i think he looks older too, and god knows how it all came to that, hopefully people might take note and be more careful of letting their daughters get involved with Turkish men/boys.

There is always the possibility that either the woman/friend/daughter are members of one of the Turkish sites posting about their relationship and have even posted about this guy at some point the last year or 2, Who knows?

Hi Teenz,

I reckon he's a loverat. Someone payed for those teeth of his - and someone paid the rent for that villa!

He's probably got loads of mugs dotted about who he saw when the girl was back home in Ireland. Just because (in his mad way) he supposedly loved her wouldn't stop him having mugs to send him money and gifts.

Then again, whose to say he did really love her? It sounds more to me that he wanted to control her. And maybe he was furious that the mother was preventing their marriage and subsequent chance of a visa to the UK. You just don't know what was going on in that head of his - except whatever it was - it wasn't normal!

Strawbs

That sounds about right to me, he looks evil too

Maria